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Post by happy2bchildfree on May 1, 2011 11:20:32 GMT -5
I am not big on forgiveness. I eventually get over the anger of being wronged and get to the point where I no longer think about it. But unless the person who wronged me either apologizes for their actions, shows remorse for what they did, or does something to make an amends, I won't even consider forgiving--and even then it depends on the offense and whether it was done out of malice or ignorance.
This came up on another board and there were some who feel as I do and some who think a person should always be forgiven, not for the sake of the person who wronged you but for yourself. I say if this works for the person, fine but this approach isn't for everyone and that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to deal with it--just different ways.
What do you all think?
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Post by cnu5000 on May 2, 2011 6:47:11 GMT -5
I find it an issue where one has to keep on dealing with the person. I think I have held grudges.
Also what does it mean to forgive? My mother had relatives killed by the Nazis and she says she will never forgive them.
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Post by preraph on May 3, 2011 18:15:17 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings on it, too. I hold grudges and kick people out of my life for good. However, one really bad episode in my life, which involved love and work both, which plunged me into a really long extremely bad depression and PTSD, I did have to come to some understanding of this person to forgive him some in order to heal myself and more than that, to believe in myself and trust my own judgement again. I am now on email casual terms with him but would never want one-on-one interaction, though going to a party he's at is fine. I wouldn't trust the situation.
I think the only validity forgiveness has is to understand how the person came to a place where they could be so savage or hurtful, and realize there is some suffering or stupidity (in my case) there, that people don't always know HOW bad they may be hurting you and so to that extent you give them a little latitude about why they are how they are, but under no circumstances do I think you put up with the behavior, and in most cases, I think most shrinks would agree you do not keep them in your life in any significant role, any way that they could do it again. Since it usually takes someone really close to you to hurt you that much, it is often family or friends who do it. You just have to get to a place where YOU are not suffering because they are still around and have very clear boundaries and refuse to let them cause chaos in your life. If you are the only one suffering and dwelling on it, they win. I learned not to let them all the way back into your life because one high school friend who betrayed me and I forgave her in college and let her all the way back in later betrayed me worse and really deeply hurt me later when we were both adults. Never again. I did come to understand some of her motivations, but it wasn't anything I was willing to put any energy toward helping her with after what she did. You have to get control of a toxic situation or just ban the person from your life.
I think it would be very hard to forgive an entire movement such as Hitler's. But if you were to really study enough to understand whatever the hardships where of the people he enlisted, you might at least come to understand how they were vulnerable to his influence. And I'm quite sure that anyone with as little empathy as Hitler had probably had severe neglect and/or abuse in his early life.
I've been all into criminal psychology for decades and I believe I understand some of the worst people in the world, those without empathy. To me, it's not a question of forgive them. When they're that extreme, murdering, hurting scores of other people, completely without empathy, my stance is you have to break the cycle to protect others, at the expense of the tyrant. I am for locking them up without any contact with friends or family or anyone else because they are able to spread their toxicity even from jail. If you think about for example a young son of a serial killer, one who perhaps saw at least some good side to his father growing up, perhaps a good sense of humor or he was a good provider, that son is going to spend the rest of his life trying to justify the bad behavior to make it acceptable for him to carry some love for that person. The sooner that influence is out of his life and that strong message is made that this is unacceptable under any circumstances, the better off that kid will be in the long term. You can have empathy for whatever hell the violent criminal went through, but I believe it's our obligation to forcefully break that cycle.
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Post by cnu5000 on May 4, 2011 10:27:58 GMT -5
I think it is easier to "forgive" people on a personal level if you feel they won't repeat their hurtful behavior.
In my personal life, I feel both my sister-in-law and boss have slighted me in the past but are nicer to me now. These are the people "forgiveness" gets to be more of an issue particularly since I have to still deal with these people.
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mar
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Posts: 237
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Post by mar on Feb 26, 2012 0:57:02 GMT -5
I find it impossible to forgive a certain person. It is a family matter and has to do with a lot of money. We are not on speaking terms and haven't been for several years. This will never be resolved because the person will not talk about it to me. The last time we talked, I said that I would be willing to sit down & discuss the situation....I've heard NOTHING since. So that's the way it will be forever. Sad, because at one time we were quite close. But that's life........not always a bowl of cherries.
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Post by happy2bchildfree on Feb 26, 2012 16:10:23 GMT -5
I find it impossible to forgive a certain person. It is a family matter and has to do with a lot of money. We are not on speaking terms and haven't been for several years. This will never be resolved because the person will not talk about it to me. The last time we talked, I said that I would be willing to sit down & discuss the situation....I've heard NOTHING since. So that's the way it will be forever. Sad, because at one time we were quite close. But that's life........not always a bowl of cherries. That's a similar situation to what I am dealing with. Even if I do ever find out why this person did what he did, I don't want a further relationship with him because he has proved himself to be a malicious, untrustworthy and toxic person. After what he did I could never trust him again, and people I can't trust have no place in my life. And unlike many people, I don't feel like I have any obligation to allow such a person back into my life just because we happen share some DNA.
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Post by preraph on Feb 26, 2012 16:22:38 GMT -5
Money can really tear people apart, particularly when it revolves around an estate being settled. It seems like there's at least one in every family who is perfectly willing to cheat other members of their own family for an extra buck or family heirloom. It happened to me while settlling my aunt's estate, which everything was to be inventoried and split among 4 heirs. I found out from my aging father that he and my sister found some cash and just took it. They both thought it was cute. So now I know half my family are theives. Not cute.
A good friend of mine had a sister she was pretty close to just go completely mentally insane during the settling of the estate and move in from another state and try to grab things and just stirred up the whole family and managed to lie and get the brothers against my friend, but in the end, she showed her true colors to the brothers, too, so now she's the one who is persona non grata. This is very painful for my friend, which just can't fathom where someone's priorities must lie to do something like that to her closest friends/family. I personally think the sister may be addicted to prescription meds or something like that, because it was just so off and she sounded so crazy, like an addict.
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Post by happy2bchildfree on Feb 26, 2012 18:58:42 GMT -5
I had no idea of how common these situations really are until I started talking to people about my situation. Just about everyone I've spoken to has either had a similar experience themselves or they know of someone else who has.
Your friend's situation sounds so similar to mine. I thought I had a good relationship with the brother who is handling the trust but I found out otherwise as soon as my father passed away. I believe that there are some mental-illness issues going on because his behavior is not that of a rational person. I didn't have a relationship with the other brother but we didn't hate each other, either. He has also turned completely against me, and my niece and nephew no longer speak to me either.
I don't think it's going to be too much longer until this estate is settled, and after it is, I will be cutting ties with all of them. I don't need people like them in my life.
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Post by preraph on Feb 26, 2012 22:30:16 GMT -5
Well, the situation is ripe with emotion because it starts off with the grief and stress, many times years of it, involved with an ill loved one, and then death. So everyone is already all strung up and emotions ramped up, and there's room for people to just be irrational, and then others just desperate to have it over with (I fall in the latter category). So you have people who don't want to deal with it at all, people who want to deal with it right now, and people who would like to just wait until they feel less stressed. But it has to be done now. Which is why it's so important for people to leave not a vague will but a very specific will. Everyone usually feels they're sacrificing, and sometimes they are, by missing work or beinig away from home or one feels they are the main caretaker of the deceased and feels they are entitled to more (even though maybe no one asked them to move in and take over), while others feel they're sacrificing more because they are having to take off work to travel, etc. It's just a bad situation going in, and then you throw years of normal sibling rivalry into the mix, and voila, you have a free-for-all. And yes, anyone who is leaning that way anyway may well ramp up their alcohol or prescription use. I know I went on valium to cope, but many get meds and then take too many and get surly or aggressive or lazy. It's just a mess.
I so hope, Happy, you get this behind you and just do not bend your brain trying to get your head around it for at least a year cooling off period. I wonder if the internet has a support group for this. I bet it does!
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Post by preraph on Feb 26, 2012 22:32:54 GMT -5
Mar, I meant to say earlier in response to your post that that person doens't want to sit down and talk it out because they know you're in the right and aren't about to admit it and just want to do what they want to do. It's called sociopathic. Hah
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mar
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Posts: 237
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Post by mar on Feb 27, 2012 0:44:42 GMT -5
Mar, I meant to say earlier in response to your post that that person doens't want to sit down and talk it out because they know you're in the right and aren't about to admit it and just want to do what they want to do. It's called sociopathic. Hah ******** Yep, I think you're right. No one can believe that he could inherit the whole estate and not feel any guilt. He's certainly enjoying it, but pretty well the whole community knows the story, and most of them don't have a whole lot of respect for him any more. I wonder if he sleeps well.....probably does...no conscience. A very sad situation.
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Post by happy2bchildfree on Feb 27, 2012 17:08:08 GMT -5
Well, the situation is ripe with emotion because it starts off with the grief and stress, many times years of it, involved with an ill loved one, and then death. So everyone is already all strung up and emotions ramped up, and there's room for people to just be irrational, and then others just desperate to have it over with (I fall in the latter category). So you have people who don't want to deal with it at all, people who want to deal with it right now, and people who would like to just wait until they feel less stressed. But it has to be done now. Which is why it's so important for people to leave not a vague will but a very specific will. Everyone usually feels they're sacrificing, and sometimes they are, by missing work or beinig away from home or one feels they are the main caretaker of the deceased and feels they are entitled to more (even though maybe no one asked them to move in and take over), while others feel they're sacrificing more because they are having to take off work to travel, etc. It's just a bad situation going in, and then you throw years of normal sibling rivalry into the mix, and voila, you have a free-for-all. And yes, anyone who is leaning that way anyway may well ramp up their alcohol or prescription use. I know I went on valium to cope, but many get meds and then take too many and get surly or aggressive or lazy. It's just a mess. I so hope, Happy, you get this behind you and just do not bend your brain trying to get your head around it for at least a year cooling off period. I wonder if the internet has a support group for this. I bet it does! All of the nastiness started the day of my father's funeral and just snowballed from there. If it had been only a couple of isolated incidents, I would be open to trying to work things out. But this isn't case. It has been one thing after another, and this person has made it abundantly clear that he wants nothing to do with me, either. So it works out well. Once I've moved, I have no intentions of giving any of these people my new address or phone number. On the positive side, I can be grateful that I found out what this person truly is, and I would be a total fool to ever trust him again. And I don't have relationships with people I don't trust. So, good riddance. Karma will come back and bite these people. I actually did look on the Internet for a support group but was unable to find anything.
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Post by preraph on Feb 27, 2012 17:32:15 GMT -5
Well, good riddance to bad rubbish. I was lucky in that my cousins we had to divy the aunt's estate with were trusting and easy to get along with.
Well, I would say start your own support group, but, one, you have us, and two, obviously forums are floundering, so it would have to be Facebook. I miss MySpace. I liked MySpace.
Well, my kitty is making sweet noises at me, so I am going to give her some food and attention.
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Post by happy2bchildfree on Feb 27, 2012 19:14:40 GMT -5
Yep. Sometimes the best thing is to just let people go. I'm truly sorry things ended up as they have, but it is what it is.
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