Need to understand this

[Doug]

Ok, I'll admit, I'm a confidently childfree single person. However, when I find someone with whom I want to be in a relationship, I will not change my mind on the 'kid question' just to please/keep them.

So, here's what I don't get. I've never been married, so please keep that in mind.

To be clear, the question is NOT: Why'd you get married if you don't want kids? That's a rude, pointelss question. I certainly don't believe that children are an obligatory aspect of marriage, and it's perfectly fine to marry without intending to reproduce.

Here are my questions. If you're not sure of whether or not you want kids, how did you handle this issue before you got married? Did the indecisiveness expressed by either (or both) of you on this issue give you any doubts about getting married?

Whether or not to have children is the ultimate all-or-nothing type of choice. There's no compromising on it, there's no doing it half-assed. You either have kids or you don't. It may sound harsh, but here's my take: If you're afraid (or otherwise unable) to be childfree, or not, ON YOUR OWN, why would you want to revisit this issue in the context of a marriage? What if the two of you end up disagreeing?

The 'kid issue' is such a personal decision, I just can't imagine having to discuss/debate it with my partner in that way. It just makes sense to me to know who you are before getting involved with someone, ESPECIALLY when entering a relationship as binding as marriage. I feel that this issue should be resolved way before the wedding, but that's me. So many marriages end because of disputes over this very issue, as we all know.

I mean, it must be tough enough dealing with people who ask about this when the answer is 'No.' I CANNOT imagine how bad it must be when the answer is 'We're not sure.'

No disrespect intended to anyone who is married and still wrestling with this issue. I just can't understand what this situation is like, but I'd like to.

[kentuckykimmie]

Doug,

feeling the way you do, i would suggest you never marry a woman who is unsure. it would do her a grave disservice and would be awful for you, her, and the child, should you give in. this is one of those issues you should make known from the very first date, if not before. you don't have to ask a girl you just met if she wants kids point blank, but it's pretty easy to find out how someone feels about it without being downright bold about it.

you could mention things like , " wow, this aunt of mine had three kids before she was 25...", for instance. most of us have someone like that in our family or circle of friends so i doubt you would have to lie. then gauge her reaction. if she says, " i don't even want to start having kids until i am 30", then you will know. most people who want children will immediately say something of that nature which affects them personally. people who want children LIKE to talk about when, with who, etc............. i wouldn't even go out with anyone who was talking like that if i were you, it will save you a lot of heartache.

[preraph]

I think before you even get engaged or go far into a relationship, the question of kids should be settled. I agree with Doug. I can't imagine being indecisive on this issue. I can't imagine being ambivalent about whether you want to go through labor and bring a responsibility into the world and change your entire life. To me, it's hard to fathom it. I mean, to simplify. Do I want a dog? Well, when I lived in an apartment no, but I knew someday I MUST have a dog, because I totally love dogs and to spend the rest of my life without a dog wouldn't have been optional, and I couldn't have married anyone who didn't likewise have warm feelings towards animals. I can't imagine no knowing you love kids enough to change your entire existence for one . It just seems like if you wanted one, it would be obvious to you. And it's certainly not a shirt you can return, so you better be certain this is your heart's desire or no good can come of it.

Now, with men, who don't usually end up saddled with the kids after divorce unless they want to be and whose lives aren't comparably altered, I can imagine ambivalence. But again, this is why the women should not have a child if part of them doesn't want to.

[cnu5000]

I went out with DH for ten years before getting married. He always made it very clear he did not want children. I would call myself more highly conflicted about the issue and to me children were never a must.

I think people get companionship and rommance out of child-free marriage. I think if people are commited to each other there are legal and social benefits to marriage that don't exist for people living together.

For men, I would suggest to look for a woman who likes work-I think she will be happier childfree.

[runmania1]

My husband and I have been married 6 years and we always assumed we would have kids. We were both focused on our careers and our hobbies, though...and it wasn't till recently that we had to face the decision head-on.

I am 33 and he is 35 now and though he would like to have kids, I look at my childed friends and their lives and have decided that it is not for me. I was on the fence for 2 years but we have talked about it recently and he has made it clear that he would be OK, one way or the other, as long as I am comfortable with my decision.

In our case, though both of us like kids, neither of us was dead-set on having kids. So, it turned out OK. A lot of people seem to be changing their mind about having children these days-and we were lucky that both of us could find a common meeting ground. But if you are 100% sure about what you want, then it would be better to sort it out before you commit to a relationship.

[aeon]

I have thought a lot about this situation for myself and others. Before we were married, My husband had vague ideas that having kids might be a good idea. He wanted to be open minded. I have seen too many couples who had not discussed having children *at all* before marriage, and then divorced after it became clear that one wanted kids and the other did not. I have been fairly certain for my adult life that I do not want kids. Occasionally I think it would have been nice, but 99% of the time I know that I am just fine without them and there are many many very good reasons why I chose not to have them.
I made it clear to my husband that I wanted to make a decision one way or the other, together, and that I did not want to be with him if we were flip-flopping back and forth about whether or not to have kids. For a while I thought I did, then he did, and back and forth. We talked about the pros and cons, decided it was not for us, got married, and are on the same page. He is now very happy to be childfree even though we both like children, we often remark how we could NOT do (insert activity here) if we had kids.
I have talked to a lot of my single male friends about whether or not they want to have kids, and they just do not want to make up their minds about it. They say, well I will date a girl and we'll see how it goes. For my female single friends, many of them are nearing 40 and they want kids, and they do not want to date and "see how it goes", they want to know if they are dating someone who would potentially like to have kids or not.

So I can see both sides, men who don't want to be seen as a sperminator and a means for a woman to have a child, and women who don't want to waste precious time dating guys who don't want to be fathers... in terms of why they don't talk about it, I think if the women come out and say right away they do want to have kids, many of the men run for the hills.

I'm looking back at your original question. Absolutely if my husband was ambivalent I would have (and did) put off marriage until there was clarity. If he really desperately wanted to have kids, and was willing to stay home with them and be a stay at home dad, I might have gone along with it. The bottom line is that I just wanted it decided one way or the other so it would not drive us apart at a later date. We're both very happy with our choice and amazing amount of time we get to spend together!

[happy2bchildfree]

aeon said:

I have talked to a lot of my single male friends about whether or not they want to have kids, and they just do not want to make up their minds about it. They say, well I will date a girl and we'll see how it goes.

I encountered a lot of that with the guys I dated--noncommittal answers about whether or not they wanted kids. I didn't continue dating anyone who couldn't/wouldn't decide what they wanted--I wasn't about to invest time with someone who might decide later on that he really did want kids.

The kid question always came up right away when I was divorced. As soon as I told the guy I was divorced, the next question was "do you have children". So that was my chance to make my feelings on the subject known--"no, and I don't want any."

I lost a lot them with that answer but better that than wasting my time with someone not on the same page.

[shell]

In my opinion I think it is crucial that the topic is discussed before marriage. It is a such a huge major life changing decision, and if two people are not of the same mindset, it could destroy the relationship. Actually I think it WOULD destroy the relationship. I have seen it happen.

I can't believe people don't discuss this before marriage, to me that just seems that you don't really know the person if you don't know their view on this. There is such pressure to reproduce, especially right after getting married. Marriage is a commitment between 2 people, why people still associate it with having kids is beyond me. A very old way of thinking. While it was certainly not an option to opt out of having kids in the 16th century, it has sloowwwwllly been changing over the centuries but is unbelievably still not accepted practice!

I question people who have kids just because their partner wants them. I don't get it. Why would a person do something they don't want to do, that has such a major affect on the entire course of their life? I can't imagine that a relationship with someone is worth that sort of sacrifice? And I feel bad for the kids too.

I found it to be very uncomfortable, and somewhat shocking, when people would have the audacity to ask me when I was having children, assuming I would, just because I got married. I wasn't expecting the blatent questions at that time, they caught me totally off guard! Particularly from co-workers. And they would not let up on it, they would ask me multiple times. I would just brush them off at first saying I was undecided, but then I did start saying I was not planning on having children just to stop the damn questions! I felt it was a real invasion of my privacy! And still do when people 'ask'.

My husband and I discussed this issue very early in our relationship, and we were both very sure we did not want kids. If someone is undecided, I would steer clear of them.

In any case, we have no regrets at all! And right now we are so very thankful that we made the choice we did. More and more thankful every year actually! We have been together 17 yrs and are 40-ish now, enjoying life.

Shell

[ana]

There are SO many things that couples do not talk about before marriage. Children is just one thing. Careers, where to live, future goals and dreams all should be discussed.

What do people talk about if not how they feel about life-changing decisions? How can you commit and fall in love with someone if you don't know how they feel about the important things in your life?

I don't get it

[nokidsplease87]

The child issue is one of the first things my fiance and I ever discussed. In fact, I'm pretty certain it was on the first date. I believe there was a family near us and I mentioned how terribly annoying their kids were; He agreed. So I asked him point blank "Do you think that you'll ever want to have kids?" and he looked a little nervous as he replied "Not really..". He said that if he wound up falling in love and marrying a girl who wanted some then he guessed he would, if it would really make her happy, but overall he really didn't want any. He looked SO relieved when I said that I absolutely was not having kids.

We've talked about it off and on over the few years we've been together, and we've both been on the same page every time; Children are NOT for us. Since I'm scheduled to get a tubal next month, we've been talking about it a lot more recently; I wanted to be 100% CERTAIN that he was on the same page with me on the kids issue. I would be having the surgery even if he had changed his mind, but I wanted to make sure of how and if things would change between us afterwards. He still feels exactly the same as he always has.

I can't imagine what would have happened if he'd said that he wanted kids after all this time... I would have broken it off, to be sure, but it would have been so emotionally agonizing because I love him so much...

My advice would be not to get with anyone that wants children if you don't want any, or vice versa. It should be one of the first things you find out about a person.

[Nephthys]

I agree with just about everyone above. Being CF is obviously so instrumental to who you are as a person, you've gotta lay it on the line from the start and expect a potential partner to do the same.
I don't really believe in a lot of these games that people play in relationships: acting all coy and not talking about the real issues for fear of ruining the "mood." Whatever. I am reminded of 5 or 6 summers ago, when I met one of my sister-in-law's co-workers. Once we realized we had a laundry list of things in common, we began a very intense courtship. The chemistry between us was just unreal, but ... on the third or fourth date I let him know that children were absolutely not in my future. He was disappointed: one of the things we'd had in common was that we are both from large Italian-Catholic families, and he wanted about a half dozen children of his own.

So in the end, even though from early in the relationship we could see longterm potential, I had to know where he stood. And we enjoyed the rest of the Summer together - an intense, amazingly fun fling and we parted on great terms. There were no hard feelings because we'd been honest with each other, and even though it was regrettable that nothing longterm came of the relationship, we were still able to enjoy the chemistry for a few months with no hard feelings because we were honest with one another from the start.

[noregrets78]

Being single and having made the decision to be CF, I will say it's not easy. I absolutely refuse to say anything other than I don't want children on any of those dating sites, and I make sure it's absolutely positively known how I feel about the issue before I even get into any kind of serious conversation with any potential date. Usually, its pretty easy. You get the question of "how long have you been on the site, any luck?" to which I reply "eh, its a little rough when you don't want children, most women run from that but I've met a few nice people"

They get the message right away, I don't think I can be any clearer than that.

I am currently speaking with a woman who is "undecided". Not sure how this is going to go but I'm hoping that she doesn't change her mind.

[preraph]

Honestly is so important. I think it will pay off eventually. I'm having a flirtation right now with a guy who is a great communicator, and I like it that if there's any misunderstanding, he'll come right out and say that wasn't what he meant and clear it up and doesn't like be covert all the time like nearly every guy I've ever known has done. I like to be honest, but so many men make it strategically impossible to do so.

[noregrets78]

I find women can be just as bad at communication. No matter how much I try to communicate my ex always found a way to twist my words to make them mean something I completely did not intend to start with.

Communication tends to break down when emotion gets involved which in my experience is more on the female side of the equation.

The above statements are for entertainment purposes only and not intended to start a flame war or to attack in any way shape or form :-D

[happy2bchildfree]

Jun 30, 2008 11:40:23 GMT -5 noregrets78 said:

I find women can be just as bad at communication.

I'm a woman and I agree with you. I hate the tendency that some women have of doing stupid things like dropping hints or manipulating to get what they want rather than directly communicating what they want or need. Then they sulk when they don't get what they want because the other person can't read their mind.

Poor communication skills is a personal issue, not a gender issue.

[nokidsplease87]

Jun 30, 2008 11:52:40 GMT -5 happy2bchildfree said:

Jun 30, 2008 11:40:23 GMT -5 noregrets78 said:

I find women can be just as bad at communication.

I'm a woman and I agree with you. I hate the tendency that some women have of doing stupid things like dropping hints or manipulating to get what they want rather than directly communicating what they want or need. Then they sulk when they don't get what they want because the other person can't read their mind.

Poor communication skills is a personal issue, not a gender issue.

Its funny you should say this, as the fiance and I were just discussing this recently..

While poor communication is an issue for both genders, it more often seems to manifest in women as manipulation and 'hint dropping', while men seem to just not know how to talk / convey what they're feeling. (It can obviously be reversed in some instances and what's true for some is not always true for others, but I'm just speaking in 'generals' here..). It is so annoying/frustrating to watch a woman 'drop hints' as to how she feels or what she wants and to just expect the other person to "read their mind". Likewise, its just as frustrating to see a guy who is being hurt and/or driven crazy by something his wife/gf is doing, but doesn't have the balls to actually tell her it affects him.

Communication is absolutely key in a good relationship. For example, I have anxiety/depression disorders which tend to be rather explosive; Meaning I bottle things up until I can't handle it anymore and then explode (either in rage or extreme despair/sadness) on the person nearest to me at the time (usually my current SO). I have destroyed SO many relationships this way because A) I didn't quite know how to deal with it (I'm still working on that) and B) I never talked about it with anyone I was with. Imagine just going along in your life and one day your SO just explodes on you for no apparent reason and acts like you should just know that they've been feeling this way (depressed/upset/etc) all this time? It destroyed those relationships completely (not saying there weren't other factors involved too, but most of them this was a large part of it). When I met my now-fiance, I made a point to sit down with him and say "Look, this is how things are with me and this is what to expect. I want you to know this so when it happens, you'll know its not an attack on you. I want you to know what you're getting in to before we let this go any further." We also had a huge discussion about honesty, and as it stands now, we literally tell each other everything. We work very hard not to let things build up / fester; We try to talk about things on the spot (unless we're emotional / upset and need cool-off time..).

Sorry, I'm babbling.... (I just got home from my group therapy session; Can you tell? lol ) My point is just that communication really can make or break a relationship, and its ridiculous to not talk about the things you do/don't like in that relationship, or to just expect people to know how you feel and what you want. You have to tell them, and you also need to be willing to listen to the things they need to tell you. It really does make all the difference.

[Nyx]

I actually brought up the topic of kids before we started dating - I asked him what his stance on them was he said CF I said great let's talk further. K thats it in a nutshell on how DH and I did the kid topic I was very blunt over it told him straight out I couldn't have them and that I didn't have an interst in adoption ... he blinked a bit then gave me his side of the matter. Two years later we're married and still on the same page.

[preraph]

That's awesome. Have to say for many people, it becomes way more complicated. I think one reason is that for men, they don't start feeling the pressure until they're 30 or so and then sometimes it's a rude awakening that Hey, my boss (friends, family) think I'm not a real man unless I have kids -- and since it's not nearly as big of an obligation and commitment to men as it is to women (who end up usually doing all the work and making most of the sacrifices), many of them give into it.