breeders making really bad choices

[yesreally]

So today I was reading an article in the paper about immigration, and how some immigrants (with shaky legal status) are scammed by phony immigrant consultants.

That's pretty tough situation to be in. But what I couldn't help but notice was that several of the immigrants interviewed - who could be deported at any time, and who have little money and poor job prospects - brought kids with them and kept on having kids once they landed here. (Having a baby in this country does not guarantee you legal resident status, so there is no advantage to be gained by doing so.)

One woman had a child with her husband, left her husband, had a child with another man, then came here, married another illegal immigrant and had a baby with him. Excuse me? Is this a responsible way to conduct your personal affairs?

I can understand desperate people coming illegally into stable countries to escape poverty, violence, war, etc. That's a perfectly rational thing to do. But having babies when your situation is so precarious - that's just stupid.

[TheBlonde]

amen to that. people who live here already are pretty damn irresponsible about having babies. stupidity doesn't discriminate, and more unfortunately, stupid people breed more idiots. it's a never ending cycle.

[preraph]

I live right in the middle of immigrant central, and I can tell you if I had a kid in school with this culture and getting the idea that it's normal to start popping out babies at 16, my head would explode. The way it works is they don't believe in birth control and it's a notch on the father's belt each new kid he gets. They start having children young, so the girls never have a life. As they grow up, they are taking care of their younger siblings. Then they have their own as teenagers. Their mom's usually help them raise them. Then when their kids have babies, the mom is about 30 and they're grandmothers already, and then they help raise those kids. All the women do their whole lives is raise kids.

And I have friends who will argue with me and say they're happy in their culture, but I can tell you I have never seen such a sour bunch of stressed out unhappy looking people as these when I go out to buy groceries. The guys work hard when they can find work and the houses are so crowded the men usually stand around in the front yard once they get home to get away while the women clean and watch the kids. The women are just totally trapped. There is a designated male in each extended family who calls a lot of the shots for the whole family in many cases. And he may have a brain the size of a pea, but it doesn't matter, because he's the boss. And it's scary they think it's a better life here than what they came from, but I have very little sympathy because the logical thing for them to do is quit breeding like rabbits so they can improve themselves. Because all it's doing is bringing the rest of us down by them being here illegally, not paying taxes and people like me paying for their healthcare (when I don't have healthcare myself) and their schooling, when I don't have kids. I just want them signed up, in the system, and paying taxes. And then if they're going to be here, I hope the women learn something and rebel and take advantage of the freedoms our country provides. Otherwise, I don't see the point.

[yesreally]

Hey preraph - I totally hear you.

Just in my own apartment building (I live in immigrant central too), this is the pattern I see:

A young couple, new immigrants, get a 1-bdrm apt. Within a couple of years, Baby #1 arrives. Mom stays home to care for it. That's a great life - spending your days holed up in a small apt with a baby. Then, Baby #2 arrives. The family remains in the little apartment, all jammed in together.

All the while, the newspapers run articles about the housing affordability crisis and all the unfortunate families living in overcrowded apartments. Some will get various forms of assistance to improve their housing situation.

And who pays for this assistance?

There's also the disparities in rent. I pay the same rent for my 1-bdrm as the family of four living down the hall from me, even though they use more water and electricity than I do, and generate more garbage.

Grrrr...

[iluvbooks]

Speaking as someone who's Hispanic, I must explain why many of my people are in this situation. Many Latinos who live here are descended from Latin American countries, including Mexico, where Catholicism is the dominant religion. In that religion, contraception is frowned on and abortion is practically condemned (as a matter of fact, many Mexicans raised hell when the Mexican government voted to legalize abortion). As a result, many people from these countries (both those who already live here and recent arrivals) have a lot of kids. That conservative mindset is also the reason why you'll see a lot of Latinos becoming parents before they even graduate from high school; studies have shown that the teen birthrate is higher among Latinos than any other ethnic group. And many Latinos live in the Southwestern part of the United States, where Republicans outnumber Democrats in the state legislatures (especially here in Texas, where I'm from). Couple the conservatism of Latino culture with the anti-birth control, anti-abortion, and abstinence-only sex ed mindset of the Republican party, and you have a recipe for the kind of situation you have just described.

Even though I'm Hispanic, I have no kids and don't want to have any. As a matter of fact, I'm bothered by the kids I see and hear screaming and crying in public places (I was at Hollywood Video tonight and some little girl was crying her head off) and their parents not doing much (if anything) about it.

[damejackee]

That's interesting, because where I live the Hispanic population is mostly Puerto Ricans, and they don't seem to really have that mindset. Especially the ones born in the U.S. A lot of the guys do drop out of school, but most often that's to go to work. The girls tend to stay in school and start having kids at around 18 or 19, and their families seem to average more like 3 kids. I'm venturing a guess that that's because they're not very religious and if they are they're more likely to be Evangelicals than Catholics.

It's pretty ironic, because white people here who don't actually know any Puerto Ricans have the total opposite stereotype about them. We also have Cubans and Dominicans, and a lot of them are into starting their own businesses, like barbershops, restaurants, bodegas, etc. They seem to have more kids than the Puerto Ricans, but it's not like they have 8 or 10 or anything.

I only ever knew one person who had a huge family (TWENTY-ONE kids!), and she was a hillbilly white person most of whose kids never amounted to anything and a lot of them were Justice System frequent flyers. So much for prejudice.

[preraph]

My own mom's family had 13 kids - but that was before birth control. My best friend in the late eighties was a Hispanic woman who had defied the rules of her culture, never married, never had kids, and become a record executive. Now well into her 40s, she still looks like she's 20, she is engaged and still no kids. She is a little petite girl, the sweetest most acquiescent person you could ever meet, and beautiful. One time we were at a concert, just walking around, and all of a sudden she whirled around and took a swing at the guy behind her. I hadn't seen what happened, but he was Hispanic too and had grabbed her *ss. I was just astounded to see this little sweet girl take a swing at anybody, but she told me some of the men in her culture felt they had the right to treat women like that -- and she wasn't having any of it. Her courage is what I want to see for every woman in every culture.

I am currently reading "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a woman of Samolian descent raised in the middle east who has made her mission to end genital mutilation and abuse of women in those cultures. She escaped from the car while being taken to her arranged marriage when she was a teen and went on the run, ended up becoming a member of Dutch Parliament, and is now a spokeswoman for women's rights internationally. She is one of the biggest assassination targets in the world now because she is considered an infidel and to kill her is a guaranteed ticked to heaven and 76 virgins and all that malarky. She is currently residing and working in D.C. and can't go anywhere without bodyguards. Her first book is called "The Caged Virgin." She is one of the most inspiring people I have ever heard of.

[iluvbooks]

To preraph: The attitude your friend was talking about is known as machismo. It's the belief that in Latino culture, men have the right to exert control over women in their families, be they their wives or daughters. That explains why the women in some of these families don't get to have a say over anything. It may also be the reason some of the men refuse to wear a condom during sex or that they make fun of homosexuals because they aren't "man" enough.

Different cultures may have different names for it, but it all boils down to one thing: male domination. Whether you call it machismo or something else, that's really what it is: control over women--and I think it's wrong.

[preraph]

Iluv, it certainly exists in every culture. In some it's just more glaring and really keeps women down. But in others, it exists on different levels but isn't so overwhelming as to take every woman's freedom. You were speaking of Catholicism. I know that is the basis for the big cultural differences in Hispanics. It is what enables the domination to continue generation to generation. I just don't understand why anyone would choose a religion that didn't support them as a person. Unfortunately the custom of the women starting to have children before they're even mature makes it too late for most of them to get to an age where they might rebel and question their existence and choose something different. They are already trapped into the lifestyle.

Catholicism is interpreted differently in every culture where it's prevalent. Many of my friends growing up were Catholics, but it didn't stop them from using birth control. Actually, it didn't stop them from just about anything because the Catholics I knew felt they could do just about anything, confess, and be absolved. But different factions have different beliefs. To most Americans, the degree of male domination that still exists in the world is shocking. But our government rarely takes a stand on that issue, which I find disgraceful. That's why we need more women in government.

[iluvbooks]

What you say is certainly true. Like many Hispanics, I was raised Catholic, but I've never really believed in all its doctrines. For example, I support quality sex education, legalized abortion, and have even made donations to Planned Parenthood. And even though I believe marriage should be forever, I'm not against people getting divorces if their marriages have no chance whatsoever of working out (the Catholic Church forbids divorce, too). As for my mom, she has three years of Catholic school education under her belt, had her First Holy Communion, and got hitched in a Catholic ceremony, but even so, she used birth control pills between having my brother and me, and then throughout the 70s until she got sterilized (that explains the small size of my immediate family).

There's even a website for Catholics who support birth control, comprehensive sex education, women's rights, and legalized abortion. It's called Catholics For a Free Choice (www.catholicsforchoice.org). It contends that there are Catholics out there who don't support all of the Church's official stances on these issues--and it's definitely true.

[preraph]

Sounds like you were lucky to have a progressive mom!

[yesreally]

Wow - this thread has gone in a direction I didn't expect.

Just to clarify, my posts about immigrants were not about Hispanics in particular. In my area immigrants come from everywhere in the world. Since so many cultures value women only as childbearers, the pattern of having kids-you-can't-afford gets repeated here too.

It vexes me for so many reasons. I can understand moving to another country to improve your economic circumstances, but why then make choices that keep you poor? I'm a citizen, and a member of the dominant/mainstream racial group, with a good job even, but I can't afford to have a bunch of kids and stay home all day with them. If I did, I could hardly cry poverty and injustice, could I?

[CFguest]

Yes, totally. You are talking east and some people here are talking west. I dont know how they turned this into womens rights issue and "male domination". IT"S NOT. Those "male dominated" women WANT to have kids becasue they WANT TO, and not because their men force them to. Looks like you're forgetting that many of those women if not most, are not married, but keep jumping from man to man to get pregnant. And it's not about culture either. Hillbillies and African American women also breed faster than rabbits. Bigots

[preraph]

Hillbillies and African Americans may also breed faster than rabbits, but it's not necessarily because they're male dominated. Hispanic culture is. It's different. I know. I see it every day and have talked in depth to Hispanics about it. Hispanics aren't jumping from man to man either. That's the difference. Choice.

[happy2bchildfree]

preraph said:

Hillbillies and African Americans may also breed faster than rabbits, but it's not necessarily because they're male dominated. Hispanic culture is. It's different. I know. I see it every day and have talked in depth to Hispanics about it. Hispanics aren't jumping from man to man either. That's the difference. Choice.

I live in an area which has a very high number of Hispanics (primarily Mexicans). I have worked with them and been friends with them. It's not at all uncommon for a Hispanic woman to have a large family fathered by several different men. Most are single mothers who end up with a child (or more than one) for every relationship they've been in.

[sweetnsour]

The thing to keep in mind is the original point of the thread. There is no scientific evidence to substantiate that any particular race or ethnicity is more genetically predisposed to conceive or reproduce than other races. There are plenty of African American who are child free and do not agree that there should be pressure on people to breed. Ms. Oprah Winfrey is an example. Having said that, the point is really about why some people choose to have more more children when they claim to be struggling enough with just one child. It seems that there is a consensus that culture and religion play a huge role in why so many people elect to have litters. I really don't mind if people have 0 or 60 children, as long as the who have them take complete financial responsibility for them. The bottom line that irritates so many of us is that some people don't understand that in order to gain, you have to give. There are way too many people who complain about the cost of raising a child, go back and have and then expect those whose chose to have fewer or none to subsidize their choices.

[preraph]

I'm sure that does happen. It happens with every culture, I suppose, to some extent, but their Catholicism and custom of marrying so young (no divorce possible) tends to keep them somewhat more monogamous, I think.

[sweetnsour]

The problem with some of the reproduction centered religions and cultural practices is that they don't also center on financial provision for offspring. Some of these macho men who equate the number of their progeny with their degree of manhood are also on deadbeat dad lists. If I could make one request of brreeders, it would be that they stop complaining about the work or money it takes to have kids. A friend of mine was omplaining about how she was on a fixed income and barely had enough to pay her bills and do things for her 6 year old son. Then she goes and gets pregnant by this man who she only knew for 4 months.
Can someone show me the logic here?

[happy2bchildfree]

sweetnsour said:

A friend of mine was omplaining about how she was on a fixed income and barely had enough to pay her bills and do things for her 6 year old son. Then she goes and gets pregnant by this man who she only knew for 4 months.
Can someone show me the logic here?

This is such a common thing. Do these people really think that it's going to be easier/less expensive with yet another kid?

What bothers me even more is women who continue to bring children into abusive or other bad relationships. Do they think that having a child (or another child) is going to improve the situation? Talk about having no logic!

[sweetnsour]

happy2bchildfree said:

sweetnsour said:

A friend of mine was omplaining about how she was on a fixed income and barely had enough to pay her bills and do things for her 6 year old son. Then she goes and gets pregnant by this man who she only knew for 4 months.
Can someone show me the logic here?

This is such a common thing. Do these people really think that it's going to be easier/less expensive with yet another kid?

What bothers me even more is women who continue to bring children into abusive or other bad relationships. Do they think that having a child (or another child) is going to improve the situation? Talk about having no logic!